[BSGSamuel]

I think you have to read the post better. Surgeon is not complaining about getting killed. He's trying to make the point that with the current rules this could be seen as a bannable offense which we think should not be the case.

We are trying to convince everyone that you should be allowed to kill unarmed people in the nether.

Read this part:

Not only was I next to a spawn portal but I also had to walk all the way there twice from Roanoke. That could be considered causing grief right? Do I really care that I was killed? Not at all. I just wanted to show how this could be bad. Do we really want to ban CirJohn?

[Surgeonbsg]

Reading is good for you.

[guadalcanal1]

I think that nether pvp should be allowed anywhere. Even in portal rooms. As for grieving in the nether, anyone who builds in the nether should expect it.

[taxidriver308]

Taxi you are obviously missing the point and haven't read the whole of my post or the other posts in this thread. Specifically the ones from Intelli. I would recommend reading everything in this thread.

Also I walked towards him so you could see his name clearly in the video and he could see I was clearly unarmed.

You were talking about doing ban requests for people that don’t follow these rules and stated “First let me say we’re not looking to get anyone banned. I had said initially I would post a ban request but that is overkill.” This implies that you feel like anyone who does kill someone in the nether that is not looking for a fight causes grief and at first should be banned, but thought that a ban is a little too harsh for said crime.

You then give an example of said crime. You were walking down the road (unarmed) and were killed. You then walk down the road again and are waiting on the portal (not in a portal room). You were then killed again. You even said that wanted to show CirJohn that you were unarmed. Meaning you thought it was wrong for him to kill you. You then say at the end of your post that you didn’t mind being killed but want to “show” a point.

So yes I read you post (all of it) and then posted my return statement which basically said “Nether is full pvp unless in a portal room so stop whining about it.” I had read Intelli’s previous posts which talked about no portal camping and no griefing and which is why I stated you were not in a portal room and that made you fair game. Intelli did not say that someone without a sword in the nether is an innocent victim and thusly should not be killed. He said “Camping/killing an innocent victim, as soon as they enter the Nether , causes grief to that player and isn’t respectful of that player.” That is talking about portal camping and killing inside the portal rooms, not someone running around in the Nether. I know how to read a “law” (in this case the word of Intelli), understand its meaning, and then apply it to real world situations (that is my career). So, every time I see Intelli making a statement about how things on this server should work, I file that away as “server law” and know how to apply it. Thusly my previous statement is still valid, true, and exactly the way I meant it. Next time don’t make assumptions about what I have or have not done.

It half way sounded like you were trying to argue the other side of the coin to prove your real point, but you contradicted yourself several times leading to confusion about your true feelings on the subject. At the end of your statement you should be saying your true feelings (which I feel did not make it through).

At the end of your statement you ask if that could be considered causing grief in a manner that implies a yes “right?”. This questions hints that you believe that because you were unarmed next to a portal (not in a portal room) that it is causing grief to you.

You say you want to show how “this” could be bad. You mean the idea of running through the Nether without a weapon and getting killed could be bad, or cause grief.

You then reverse and say that you did mind being killed, but just wanted to “show” how this could be bad. Either it is bad (like you imply several times) or it isn’t (because you don’t mind). Good flip flop going on there.

And you wrap it up with a question about do “we” want to ban CirJohn. Due the tone in your entire post and the phrasing of the question, it sounds more like “I feel like CirJohn should be banned for his actions but I just don’t want to make an official ban request and would rather the Admins/Mods see the video, read my post, take my side and then ban him.” I am not saying you are saying that, that is just how it comes across in your post (if I am wrong please let me know).

I think my opinion is pretty clear but will state it again so there is no confusion. The nether is full pvp (except for portal rooms and camping) no matter what you are doing, so people should stop whining about getting killed.

[BSGSamuel]

I'm very sorry you misinterpreted the post, we explained what we actually mean afterwords so hopefully that clears things up.

Also, you can see Surgeon standing next to the portal when CirJohn starts shooting arrows. I know the spawn city gate doesn't have a well defined room around it but you could argue Surgeon was close enough to it.

I'm going to steer away from this ridiculous interpretation argument (bloody lawers) and go back to the point now.

All we want is some better defined rules about when you can and can't kill people in the nether. To keep things simple we'd suggest that you're allowed to kill anybody at any time except for inside the portal rooms belonging to cities (this would require the construction of portal rooms at every city).

The idea behind this is that when you travel through the nether you are taking a shortcut but it is also dangerous. So even if you are not armed and completely peaceful you can stil get killed (also over and over again). If you don't want to get killed you'll just have to travel in the overworld. The nether will become a great way to travel quickly but it will come with huge risk.

This also means people would be allowed to camp outside of portal rooms. If someone comes through the portal they can check to see if there is anybody waiting for them and head back if they don't think it's safe.

[Surgeonbsg]

"This implies that you feel like anyone who does kill someone in the nether that is not looking for a fight causes grief and at first should be banned, but thought that a ban is a little too harsh for said crime."

No it implies that I was actually going to be an ass and post a ban request to make my point that allowing full PVP in the Nether but telling people they still have to abide by the spawn rules in there is rediculous. Atleast in regards to killing people. If you're in there it should be fair game. I later decided against the ban request because I hoped I could just show an example of how easily one could be banned and that would be enough. Obviously that was not simple enough to understand. I thought it was.

EDIT - Basically my questioning of this arises from the definition of griefing we seem to be using. If griefing is to be considered any act that causes another play grief than any act of killing another player in the Nether could be considered griefing. Kill someone and refuse to give them their stuff? You've made them sad. Kill someone walking the road from point A to point B and now they have to walk it over again? You have made that player sad. Take a chance and not attack someone only to have them attack you once they are behind you? Now you've lost your stuff and you're sad. Do you see how this could be a problem? Now you're not worried about getting killed in the Nether. Now you have to worry about getting banned because you went in the Nether.

I enjoy playing on this server. I do. I also love me some PVP in the Nether. It's good times. I'd hate to end up getting banned though because I made someone sad doing what I thought all along we could do. That is why I'm hoping we can get a clearer understanding of what exactly is allowed there.

[taxidriver308]

Surgeonbsg:

You did not show how one could be easily be banned using your example.

First it appears CirJohn is waiting off in the distance because there is a group of people close to spawn portal (and there is no portal room), then JesusTomato starts running at him with a sword out. CirJohn then kills Jesus in self defense. You appear to be in the same group as Jesus and can be thought to be a hostile as well. You then start walking towards CirJohn when he attacks you (heading towards someone in a hostile environment is considered a hostile action).

Following the current list of actions that would be considered bannable the above action does not meet that criteria and thusly invalidates your arguement. Either state your arguement straight foreward or learn how to argue the inverse correctly because you are still failing at it. (That is all I am going to say about you or your posts.)

BSGSamuel:

Thank you for clearing up what you and your friends are really talking about. You are respectful and have well presented ideas, thoughts, and opinions. I look forward to conversing with you in the future.

Intelli has given us every thing we need to have a set of rules on how to act in the nether according to his statements: full pvp in nether, no griefing of structures, no pvp inside portal rooms, and no portal camping.

[Surgeonbsg]

No. Following the current definition of griefing as laid out by Intelli those actions could be considered bannable. If you also pay attention to the video you will note CirJohn shot an arrow at me before I had even turned around to look at him and had yet to make one step towards him.

You're argument that my argument is invalid is without merit. Nice try troll.