[jeniansmom]

In a real world workplace situation there would most likely be a warning and counseling from HR for something as trivial as this especially as a first offense. In a bar or club a bouncer would give a warning as well if someone was getting out of line. Heck I've even seen people in Chuck E Cheese get asked to keep the swearing down as its a kid friendly place, but no cops were called, noone was kicked out.

Also in a real world workplace situation many companies would not allow vv and Rokkr to work in the same place let alone both be in positions of authority (and one ranked higher than the other at that) because of their real life relationship. vv lets her emotions get the best of her as staff and is quick to ban when the offense is against her as I recall from her banning of BSGSamuel. Rokkr is great at what he does for this server but is in an unenviable position.

river should absolutely apologize and learn from this, but vv should never have been made staff and should have the grace to realize her own limitations and step down so that these situations don't keep cropping up. And that is my opinion.

[river33]

There should have been a private warning for sure. A quick mention that comments are being perceived as disrespect to staff and further commenting in such a manner would result in a ban, would have probably shut River up.

The first comments River made were simply stupid, but not ban worthy. The second comments were definitely over the line and it is in that middle zone where maybe a kick with a message "next time it's a ban" would have been warranted, but that's really up to staff now isn't it.

However it sounds like River and VV have bad blood, that most definitely exacerbated the confrontation, and I think the deciding factor was that VV is staff and has the power to ban.

We can't really talk about what's "family friendly" or not, because plenty of regulars make plenty of questionable comments in the wee hours of the morning and nothing happens.

Sorry, I think this is poor modding. Could have and should have been handled differently.

As blunt as this is. This is what I was trying to get at. And honestly, an action should be taken for these type of situations. This isn't fair for the players who aren't staff.

River, I've had lots of experiences with staff. And one thing I know is that discussing with them about how you're right when you're not never works (and if it does, 5% of the time). Just apologize for what you did, hopefully get unbanned, and done. That's all you have to do. Pretty simple, isn't it?

The reason I didn't is because I have seen this countless times and there has to be someone to say something or else nothing gets changed.

In a real world workplace situation there would most likely be a warning and counseling from HR for something as trivial as this especially as a first offense. In a bar or club a bouncer would give a warning as well if someone was getting out of line. Heck I've even seen people in Chuck E Cheese get asked to keep the swearing down as its a kid friendly place, but no cops were called, noone was kicked out.

Also in a real world workplace situation many companies would not allow vv and Rokkr to work in the same place let alone both be in positions of authority (and one ranked higher than the other at that) because of their real life relationship. vv lets her emotions get the best of her as staff and is quick to ban when the offense is against her as I recall from her banning of BSGSamuel. Rokkr is great at what he does for this server but is in an unenviable position.

river should absolutely apologize and learn from this, but vv should never have been made staff and should have the grace to realize her own limitations and step down so that these situations don't keep cropping up. And that is my opinion.

^^

[Falconis]

I can understand River's frustration because he perceives his comments as harmless and humorous. Now that he has learned that these sort of comments are offensive and sexist, there doesn't appear to be any regret. The level of offense taken is determined by the person who feels affected or hurt by the comment, not by the person who made the comment. The appropriate way to have moved forward would have been to be apologetic, to have sought to understand how their comments were taken in such a way, and make an effort to move forward.

The comments about a staff member's legitimacy are worthy of a discussion, but they are not a factor in this ban. This ban is about comments that were made about another player, to another player, who happens to be staff, they were antagonistic, and they were over the line. Albeit only by a hair in some people's point of view, but they were indeed over the line.

[river33]

I can understand River's frustration because he perceives his comments as harmless and humorous. Now that he has learned that these sort of comments are offensive and sexist, there doesn't appear to be any regret. The level of offense taken is determined by the person who feels affected or hurt by the comment, not by the person who made the comment. The appropriate way to have moved forward would have been to be apologetic, to have sought to understand how their comments were taken in such a way, and make an effort to move forward.

The comments about a staff member's legitimacy are worthy of a discussion, but they are not a factor in this ban. This ban is about comments that were made about another player, to another player, who happens to be staff, they were antagonistic, and they were over the line. Albeit only by a hair in some people's point of view, but they were indeed over the line.

I have apologized multiple times now for the words throughout the conversation.

[monkeychunks]

I have been trying to stay off this thread to not provoke it, however I feel I might have some important points to share. First of all I have seen many different inappropriate comments in chat at times worse than Rivers, however they are not directed to other players. Secondly I have no qualifications to say this, however staff should be treated the same as normal players, although in reality this is not always the case. The reason I bring this point up is because if River were to be arguing with a regular player about something such as this and that player ban requested him, River would likely not get banned but warned. To adress VVolfie as staff, I honestly cannot say VVolfie is a bad staff because I do not see the majority of the things she does, however for example a situation I can recall is when she banned cobaya18 for swearing once. Yet when Cancer_Cowboy had previously (not long before) been banned for swearing, and decided to get on and swear 3-4 times in chat not including avoiding the filter while VVolfie was on, did not get banned by her like cobaya18. Although VVolfie may not be the best staff and may make mistakes every now and then, we all do and we should look at the big picture. Now to adress Rivers appeal and opinion overall... This appeal is horrible. If it was me I would have at the least apologized to VV for offending her wether or not you thought it was an offensive comment. I honestly don't see why you keep stating you were banned for being humorous. That means absolutely nothing, in fact many players have been banned because of being "humorous", just because something's funny to you doesn't mean it's funny to others. Also your presentation of an opinion is aweful. Opinions should be presented in a mature and respectful manor. I would write more but I don't have the time. I hope you are unbanned shortly and have learned your lesson.

[Eetrab]

Is there any way staff could post more chat logs so the community can take sides?

Many of you are comparing how this would be handled in a real institution vs. how it was handled here. While there is definitely a difference, in that River was outright banned instead of warned first (as indicated so far), this is irrelevant. Those administrating MineRealm have the power to place and enforce these rules, sometimes arbitrarily, in almost any way that they want and this shouldn't normally be a problem. Many people are calling this out as a problem, however, since they are used to the idea of warnings first, then bans.

Sorry River, but if you made inappropriate and disrespectful comments and are banned because of it, then that's your fault. You can't call out staff for not giving you a warning first. It's a rule and one that you should be acutely aware of.

[Grelman]

In fact, not one time did you ever tell me to stop. Not once.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings, but I did not mean too. This isn't a good reason for a ban. Most especially since you never told me to stop. How did I come to this conclusion? Because I have been playing the server for 3 years. Simple as that. Becoming staff doesn't give you ultimate knowledge of the whole server. It just doesn't. That isn't being disrespectful, that is stating the truth.

3 years on the server should give you a fairly good idea of what is and isnt perceived as proper form in pub chat.

[OrigamiElephant]

Is there any way staff could post more chat logs so the community can take sides?

Many of you are comparing how this would be handled in a real institution vs. how it was handled here. While there is definitely a difference, in that River was outright banned instead of warned first (as indicated so far), this is irrelevant. Those administrating MineRealm have the power to place and enforce these rules, sometimes arbitrarily, in almost any way that they want and this shouldn't normally be a problem. Many people are calling this out as a problem, however, since they are used to the idea of warnings first, then bans.

Sorry River, but if you made inappropriate and disrespectful comments and are banned because of it, then that's your fault. You can't call out staff for not giving you a warning first. It's a rule and one that you should be acutely aware of.

Taking sides is a terrible idea. I do agree that it might not be a bad idea to post VV's chat logs in relation to this in order to contextualize the ban.

Truth is while I myself have never donated to the server, other people do, and they have a right to be treated fairly while playing here. Mod bias or abuse is something staff needs to be routinely rooting out and reforming. If VV took personal offense to something River said, she doesn't have the right to simply ban him because her feelings were hurt. It's just not acceptable.

[FinalFouad]

I haven't been on much lately so I am not too sure what was said in chat.
Other than the first point, this isn't a "FinalFouad's in VVolfpack, he must be taking her side" statement, but just look at it logically. I know not everyone is at the same age group, but that doesn't mean a person can act absent-minded throughout the whole appeal and in chat.
I am not going to go around and quote the contradicting statements (which can be found literally throughout this whole thread), but some things really stick out that needs to be clarified.

1.

Why she didn't like this, you say? Because she didn't get her way and have Skull stay in her guild. For this she has, in a way, "discarded" Skull for her actions and placed her in the lowest of low in her eyes.

Not to knock you two off your high-horses, but do you two honestly feel this way? Not are you guys clearly wrong, but you're far from any truth. It's a shame to even read something like this coming from you guys. Your statement there alone is enough to show that both of you share that opinion.

2. "I tell my female friends all the time...." Workplace, MineRealm, game, or wherever else you think you should be allowed to say this. Re-read what you wrote. "Female friends". It is clear that you and VV are not friends. Regardless of where you say this, you must be foolish to not think negative consequences will come from this. You guys need to realize that content which is not filtered but is HIGHLY disrespectful to ANYONE deserves its judgment. You feel like there has been worse comments made elsewhere? Bring it to the community's attention. You need to grasp the concept you can't go around saying things like this. You have been banned for making that statement and NO WHERE in this feeble appeal do you even properly address this. Instead, the vast majority of this appeal is more of a personal attack. You guys have an opinion on a staff member? Guess where that goes, not here. This ban appeal is for river33 making an extremely rude comment in chat.

I honestly feel like this appeal is more of a "this is personal, she is wrong & bad, etc" thread rather than you apologizing for the reason why you're banned. "I apologize if I hurt your feelings". This is not apologizing for what you've said. You brag about being on this server for long, I think you should realize the gravity of your disrespectful comment and this pathetic ban appeal. Yes, this ban appeal is honestly very pathetic. That is not an opinion. I am not going to bother to read through this appeal again to find your specific statements, but you first say you didn't apologize because you want things to change and then a few posts down you say you have apologized throughout this thread? (You say conversation, I'm only assuming you are referring to this appeal's "conversation"). You are only lying to yourself.

To all of those who state that VV should not be staff, you should reevaluate your statements and see that if it is truly a personal attack or not. Did VV act swiftly without warning? Possibly. Was it justified? Yes. Players get banned for avoiding the filter, whether it is inappropriate comments or alterations of profanities.

Not once do I mention how you've disrespected her as a staff member. I think you've disrespected her on a much higher level. You've disrespected her as a person. And after reading this thread, you have yet to realize that. Behind every thread, comment, chat, or whichever is another person behind a keyboard, always keep that in mind.

[SkullRose]

River should have never mentioned me on here to begin with. I don't know what to say regarding that except that there had been a misunderstanding at some point between VVolfie and I that I did in fact mention to my guild leaders at the time (river being one of them) because it had to do with me having to chose between VVolfpack and my NEW and at the time, TEMPORARY guild. It's rather of a long and complicated story that I do not wish to go into. As far as I'm concerned and according to VVolfie herself, she and I are on good terms. This is between river and her. Please leave me out of it.